Discussion about this post

User's avatar
L. Scott Urban's avatar

I wish you'd given Sapolsky some more pushback, but you were pretty clear about where you're coming from, so it isn't the worst thing in the world. I'd like to question his premise. Why is it only possible for free will to exist through the breakage of fundamental laws of the universe? Why is that treated as a remotely reasonable expectation from his side? Why does something as fundamental, flexible, and pervasive as causation have to be usurped in order for free will to exist? Mitchell may make dubious claims about how fully he understands the implications of quantum mechanics, but Sapolsky expects us to become literal reality warping gods before he'll allow free will to exist.

To try and reset the frame, try looking at free will as a meter, rather than a switch. A 'Free-will-o-meter' actually makes more sense than a strict binary, in my experience. Amoeba have more free will than rocks, but less than humans. Humans have less free will than omnipotent beings of infinite creation, but that doesn't mean we don't have free will, and it certainly doesn't mean we can't gain more of it based on how we interact with the world. Unlike amoeba or rocks, humans are capable of comprehending our evolutionary history, our hormonal and neuronal state, our culture and upbringing, and incorporating those into our decision making. This means we have more control over the decisions we make than amoeba or rocks. We have more free will. But Sapolsky (if I'm reading him correctly from your description) doesn't view this as evidence in favor of free will, he instead views it as further evidence against it. He only sees more causal lines which force humans to make such and such a decision. That's the issue with his entire premise. He sees free will as a binary, and all of the necessary complexity which contributes towards an increase in the free-will-o-meter only serves to highlight how humans aren't at the absolute maximum. More free will leads to less free will, because a greater capacity to understand and shape the world around us necessarily leads to a greater capacity to understand the things we cannot shape. But an inability to shape certain facets of the universe does not invalidate free will. You cannot ignore all the things that we are able to shape which were previously impossible, and fixate on the things which currently seem to be impossible, and say that free will doesn't exist!

Okay, sorry, wow. It's getting late, I could probably go on, but I need to sleep. This was interesting, thank you for posting it. Hope there was something in my rant up there that was worthwhile, and my apologies if there isn't, I love rambling about this stuff.

Expand full comment
Laura Creighton's avatar

I've read Sapolsky. I haven't read Mitchell.

Two points: First: One is not required to believe in causality as Sapolsky so defines it. In his version, a given state must always lead to one and only one next state, and so can be said to cause or determine it. But this might not be the case. Imagine that God duplicated the entire universe down to the last subatomic particle and its position. Completely identical. And then you wait a bit. If Sapolsky-type hard determinism is true, then the two universes will continue to be identical forever more. But if at many points along the way the next step is only one of several possibilities, which we can only know in a probabilistic fashion, then the two universes will begin to diverge. This isn't enough to get you to free will, but if it is possible to influence the possibilities then you can get somewhere close enough.

Second: The evolutionary argument in favour of the existence of Free Will is the whole existence of natural selection. Various modifications make an organism "more fit", i.e. survive and leave more descendants than those that don't have the modification. A great many of these modifications give better perceptions, and better cognitive abilities. Now, if all of this is in the service of making better decisions -- see the tiger! don't get eaten! -- this all makes perfect sense. But only if you actually could make the decision the other way. A world where every decision had to be what it was, is one where there is no need to develop complex organisms at all. Why would we have them? What's the point of a tiger?

Expand full comment
14 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?